Origin of consciousness?

I am working on bio-materials and have been learning some very cool things. I am not really working on genetic engineering but I got interested after reading about a new discovery in which a group of scientists have mapped the artificially synthesized genes on a natural bacteria. Artificial genes overtook natural genes and replicated to make new cells. I am not writing this post to explain this discovery but about the ‘questions’ that have been erupted by this discovery within me. Let me first make a background first before raising my questions.

We all know there are well-defined and finite number of elements (some may not have been discovered yet) but to our knowledge everything has been made by these elements or their combination. Our body, obviously, must have been made from these elements too. I have been working on making materials and know few techniques to make materials. But anything that has been made by any of the materials, that human has synthesized, can not have his own consciousness or a brain that can think (robots too have been programmed to work in a way and do not have independent mind). But when i see natural stuff like human being the first question that comes in my mind: how come some 100 odd materials be combined to obtain a ‘being’ which can think of its own, can even ask himself such questions (a robot don’t talk to himself ki why I have been made?).

Now when I gave it a thought what i thought was something like this:
How are humans controlled?: Through cells which perform complex reactions. Now, how are these cells controlled? Through ‘genes’, right(?) what exactly is a ‘gene’?: can be understood as a code (in simple language, i hope biology guys won’t get offended). In fact, in the discovery, about which i wrote in first paragraph; artificial genes were synthesized. I think they made one error in a million of codes and their mapping went wrong in starting and it took 4 months time to find that mistake. So, there is code (genes) that is transferred from generation to generation and even modified over the course of time. Now this code governs our cells which with combination of many processes defines an ‘individual’.

According to religious views: God (defined differently by everyone) created man and their story fits too. Let us suppose there is smart guy who created an arena (world here) and made some bots (some bacteria n all which finally transformed into human being after billions of years) and he used some programs (genes) and introduced in a body. So, we are like automated bots! Now, they claim that man has a pre-defined destiny n blah-2 which obviously can be explained by saying ki may be god has created different program for each. Karma n all used to describe this logic, i guess. But their logics are challenged by scientific work like genetic engineering.

According to scientific theories: Big bang n then evolution n all (i am reading about it and not complete yet). I think, as of now science is not able to explain the consciousness and once someone can make an artificial life (recent discovery is a small step in that) then we can have better understanding of this (how can we generate consciousness in combination of elements).

So, I don’t know which side to take. n i don’t know the best answer to the question. Will write more questions later with my perspective.

Comments

  1. dont go into too much genetics...... It would blast your mind up...If you really wanna start reading genetic stuff.start from the real basic stuffs such as rna dna and their replication and all...dont go forward by leaps and bounces...

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  2. You did not get the gist of post. I raised a question and then tried to find the answer from two approaches. I mentioned genetic engg. because it was from where I got curious.

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  3. "Now this code governs our cells which with combination of many processes defines an ‘individual’."

    do you really think a code defines you as an individual? if yes.. then according to you.. we dont have a free-will... recent developments in quantum mechanics may (on first glsnce) seem to negate the possibilty of free-will.. but on the contrary.. it further strengthens the idea.. for more information on this.. watch "Waking Life".

    And as long as you have free-will... no 'code' can define you as an individual. Here is where the concept of 'conciousness' or 'soul' originates...

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  4. I never said ki code define you as an individual..i wrote, "with combination of many processes " but neither have i discarded it because....I am just wondering why do we have 'free-will' or what we are thinking is really a free-will? may be what we are thinking is within the domain defined by that code and that is why some people are more intelligent than other and can think amazing things take einstein, he used to live in his own world. If we have same building material than why are we so different it is because of these genes, isn't it? Why do all bots behave differently because they are programmed that way, arn't they?

    And quantum mechanics have been used widely to just cover things..what i am saying is a scientist may modify some rules or make some assumptions (very often in QM) and can come up with misleading results. Its just that normal person don't understand QM so we get convinced that ohh..its supported by QM so it must be true.

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  5. Of course.. nothing can be said with surity... but what if there was a code.. there must be at least two people in this world who should think exaclty the same thing in same condition. For example, take twins... although they might have everything similar.. bcoz of their genes... they still think independently.. if you toss a coin and ask them to chose.. there is no surity that both of them will chose the same thing... this proves that genes can define everything about the 'body'... but not about the 'soul' or as you call it 'conciousness'....

    You totally misinterpreted the QM discussion.. watch tht movie or read abt this paradox.. then we will discuss it...

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  6. forgive my spelling mistake.. surity==surety...
    it felt ok when i was writing.. but feels weird when read...

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  7. haha..i knew you someone will raise this fact...but i am not sure if this is a 'fact' now..check this link: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical

    And i have one more explanation and i will try to explain in a language of which you are more familiar than me. You make two bots and program them exactly the same. Leave them in different arenas and then put them in two copies of same arena and you will have your answer. They will behave differently, won't they? You can argue with fact ki there can be difference in environment and this exactly the point..our behaviour varies with environment and you can not keep two twins in same environment and they are bound to differ. But i think scientific explanation given in article (of which i gave you link) will give you better insight that they dont really have the same genes although DNA looks similar initially.

    I will get back to you on QM soon.

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  8. but its immaterial... whether the genes are similar or not.. my point is.. if there was something physicaL that controlled our thinking, then at least two people would have turned out with exactly the same thinking process and making the same choices... and with such a long history of human beings.. i am sure we would have had one case at least... when everything else can be the same.. why not this one thing?

    and dont you think there must have been studies conducted on twins.. like keeping them in exactly the same environment for a certain period of time after birth.. but i am sure that nothing came out of that.. because we are looking for something here.. which has a pretty small chance of existence... the code governing the thinking.

    and even if there was a code.. the study you told me about shows that your genomes can change with environment around you.. so even if there was a code initially.. it changed the moment the child was born... and keeps on changing.. so the guy who programmed the bot ultimately loses his power... that again gives the person the free-will to chose his environment and accordingly alter his code...

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  9. First paragraph: I could not understand. If genes are not the point? what are we talking here? What physical?

    Second paragraph: Please mention any study, you know with reference and we can't comment without evidences, right? You can't say nothing or something may come up.

    Third para: Where did study stated ki genes were changed among subjects over the course of time? They have written that genes could be copied in one of the two ways. Genes (pattern) doesn't change that frequently yaar (?) its just their activity. When did master's power came into discussion?

    See what we are discussing her is whether genes have an affect on thinking of a being. What my argument is that every human think diffenetly and there is onyl genes that differ in human beings. SO, i was trying to relate them with different perspective like science and religion.

    What is your stance? I think its a NO! But i don't understand basis of your conclusions (?)

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  10. Awesome discussion guys!! ha ha .....
    The code in DNA hence RNA controls formation of various amino acids hence protiens , there secretion etc. So DNA's (or the code's) control over basic processes/characters like body parts growth and even basic behaviour of indivdual, sounds like a "digestable" point.
    Now, if I am right center of ur discussion is link b/w "an individual" & "his genes" (here by indiviual I mean aggregate of his behaviour and thinking pattern)...and main question there becomes ..What exactly is "thought" in physical sense, how it originates, how its related with the chemicals at bottom.
    I can argue that gene or the basic DNA code just works as basic sequence. Since its a definite sequence it can control some basic things (mentioned in starting), but thoughts are random , so random that any deterministic combination of codes with any level of complexity seems incapable of taking it into account.There must be some "bad" words like "probability" and "uncertainity" involved somewhere. Can some1 try to fill this void.

    A bateria and a human are very different in these terms. As a matter of fact this recent development did caused some uneasiness initially, but when i look at how human is different from other beings in terms of thinking and progress (that can be passed over generations) I feel safe.
    So I would like to argue that Artificially developed life form can work as a factory or a robot in biology but the "free will" , the only superior form of "independence" that makes us capable of this discussion is something "impossible" to achieve.How it came to us still makes us look to path of "soul & sprituality" ...What do you say??

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    Ajay Dangi( as Blue-Orb)
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  11. @ Dangi bhaiya: What i fell is that this so-called 'free-will' is dependent on our environment. FOr example, consider a poor guy in Africa, his 'free-will' is only working in finding ways to get food and wont be thinking of principles of Quantum Mechanics. 'genes' too are affected by our environment and this makes me relate both. I am not claiming anything especially that our free-will is governed by genes as i have nothing to back it up. I am just trying to relate them and I have sufficient ground to do so.

    Regarding Mathematical explanation: Ain't mathematics a tool developed by us to interpret things. All these number systems, rules et all are made by us and only help us interpret things. May be there is no theory to explain the orgion of free-will and its relation with chemical compounds but we cant rule out, at the least at present, about such possibility.

    Regarding aritfical life: Manipulating an organism by introducing an artifically synthesised was highly improbable at 18th century but its now a fact. May be when science and maths are developed enought to explain so called free-will, we can introduce free-will in artifically synthesized bodies too. What is feel is that whatever human are not able to explain is left to an unidentified and unseen thing called 'god' and there are always spiritual gurus to fabricate nice stories to convince common people like us. Spirit controlling our free-will is not acceptable to me. It is just we are not mature enough yet to explain some things.

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